Spring Break
Interview with Tom Wise
William Bruce
Issue date: 11/19/08 Section: News
Tim Wise is an anti-racism writer and activist who speaks to campuses and community groups around the nation. He spoke to Rhodes about the daily and systemic advantages that come from being a member of the dominant racial group and the substantial consequences paid by society for the maintenance of such privileges.
WB: How have recent events affect institutional racism?
TW: I think they have affected the perceptions of institutional racism more than the reality. I think that institutiontional racism is about systemic and sustained inequality between white folks and people of color. And the fact that a man of color is president changes one institution, it changes the executive, it doesn't change the reality for 90 million people of color in all who according to the data still face job discrimination, still face racial profiling, still face housing discrimination, still face healthcare inequality and educational inequity based on race. That's still there. So, the analogy I used about Pakistan, Israel, India and Great Britain, they have all had woman who have been there chief executives, they still have sexism, I would imagine, I haven't seen anything to suggest otherwise. The same is true here with regards to race. Obama's election could lead to some progress if we accept the challenge of moving forward and working on those issues. But it could also make us go back to sleep and assume that the work has already been done, and it hasn't.
WB: Is there more pressure for white people to understand the lifestyle of minorities now, when compared to previous years?
TW: I think there's more pressure for white folks to develop what we sometimes call cultural competence. Businesses are talking about that now, schools are talking about that. I'm not always sure that the motivation for why their talking about it is great. Sometimes I think the motivation for companies is they want their people to become cultural competent about others so they can sell them stuff, so again it's just about making money. Schools wants their students to be culturally competent so they can get along better and there is something to be said for that. But I guess the issue that I have is that if we are going to understand the other, if white folks are going to understand people of color, we've got to start by really understanding ourselves and understanding how our perspective, and our culture is filtered through a particular lens. Like a lot of time white folks come to a particular interaction with people of color with the assumption that our experience and our perspective is just normal, instead of realizing that it's a specific white experience. And that creates a conflict. So white folks and people of color can look at the same phenomena, the same news story, and have very different views. And its one thing for white folks to try to understand where the person of color is coming from, but its another thing for a white person to try to ask themselves, well, why are they seeing it the way they are see it. Why did white people view the first O.J. Simpson verdict in 1995 as insane, how could you think he wasn't guilty, and black folks thought, well of course he was proven not guilty, the reasonable doubt was there. You had two groups of people looking at the same story, the same facts, and coming to two different results. Why? Because for black folks police misconduct, which was what was alleged in the case, was very real to them. So when they hear about a racist cop who is being accused of planting evidence, if I'm black, I go back to that place that says, yeah, that happens, I know that happens. If I'm white, I hear about police misconduct and I think, what, that's not my experience. So if I'm gonna understand black folks I have got to understand my own stuff and I think that's what we don't do enough of.
WB: How have recent events affect institutional racism?
TW: I think they have affected the perceptions of institutional racism more than the reality. I think that institutiontional racism is about systemic and sustained inequality between white folks and people of color. And the fact that a man of color is president changes one institution, it changes the executive, it doesn't change the reality for 90 million people of color in all who according to the data still face job discrimination, still face racial profiling, still face housing discrimination, still face healthcare inequality and educational inequity based on race. That's still there. So, the analogy I used about Pakistan, Israel, India and Great Britain, they have all had woman who have been there chief executives, they still have sexism, I would imagine, I haven't seen anything to suggest otherwise. The same is true here with regards to race. Obama's election could lead to some progress if we accept the challenge of moving forward and working on those issues. But it could also make us go back to sleep and assume that the work has already been done, and it hasn't.
WB: Is there more pressure for white people to understand the lifestyle of minorities now, when compared to previous years?
TW: I think there's more pressure for white folks to develop what we sometimes call cultural competence. Businesses are talking about that now, schools are talking about that. I'm not always sure that the motivation for why their talking about it is great. Sometimes I think the motivation for companies is they want their people to become cultural competent about others so they can sell them stuff, so again it's just about making money. Schools wants their students to be culturally competent so they can get along better and there is something to be said for that. But I guess the issue that I have is that if we are going to understand the other, if white folks are going to understand people of color, we've got to start by really understanding ourselves and understanding how our perspective, and our culture is filtered through a particular lens. Like a lot of time white folks come to a particular interaction with people of color with the assumption that our experience and our perspective is just normal, instead of realizing that it's a specific white experience. And that creates a conflict. So white folks and people of color can look at the same phenomena, the same news story, and have very different views. And its one thing for white folks to try to understand where the person of color is coming from, but its another thing for a white person to try to ask themselves, well, why are they seeing it the way they are see it. Why did white people view the first O.J. Simpson verdict in 1995 as insane, how could you think he wasn't guilty, and black folks thought, well of course he was proven not guilty, the reasonable doubt was there. You had two groups of people looking at the same story, the same facts, and coming to two different results. Why? Because for black folks police misconduct, which was what was alleged in the case, was very real to them. So when they hear about a racist cop who is being accused of planting evidence, if I'm black, I go back to that place that says, yeah, that happens, I know that happens. If I'm white, I hear about police misconduct and I think, what, that's not my experience. So if I'm gonna understand black folks I have got to understand my own stuff and I think that's what we don't do enough of.
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